10 Questions About Xinyiquan by Zhang Fang(Jing Wu magazine, issue 6, 2004)

10 Questions About Xinyiquan

by Zhang Fang

(translated by Jon Nicklin)

Jing Wu magazine, issue 6, 2004

In spring of 2003, a Japanese man, Anteng Zhizai (Chin. pron.; Jap pron. Ando Naoya?) came to Liaoning TV station to interview me. Mr Ando said that he was an inheritor of Dai Kui's xinyi and was a disciple of Ren Dahua and Wang Yinghai, and so we compared our dantian methods (squatting, moving and 'shooting'), the 3 old fists (drilling (zuan), wrapping (guo) and cutting (jiani) and the 5 element fists. It was only after confirming that he was, indeed, a Dai stylist that I went on to compare other things with him. Because Mr Ando's chinese was not yet fluent, and I don't understand Japanese, even though Mr Ando asked me many questions in writing, I was unable to answer his questions completely.

In the last few years, I have received letters from xinyi enthusiasts from both at home and abroad asking about how xinyi has changed during its development, and also about various problems encountered during practice. I answer these questions below.

1) How was Xinyiquan created? Which other styles of martial arts is it related to?

This issue was covered as early as the 13th year of Yongzheng reign, in the late Qing dynasty by Wang Zicheng in his 'Preface on Uncertainties of Boxing Classics', in which he related that 'divine spear' Ji Longfeng from Pingyang in Shanxi, who lived during the late Ming/early Qing dynasties, applied his knowledge of spear methods to create a bare-handed martial art and called it 'Six harmonies' [liu he] boxing. In recent years, experts such as Sun Yemin and others have found evidence proving that Ji Longfeng was indeed the creator of xinyi liuhe. As for the claim espoused by Dai Longbang's inheritors that xinyi liuhe was created by Yue Fei, there is not a shred of historical evidence to support this - not only is it not mentioned in official histories, there is not a word about it in the unofficial histories either. The only related evidence is a novel called 'The Complete Biography of Yue Fei' (Shuo Yue Quan Zhuan), in which it is said that Yue studied martial arts from Zhou Dong, but there is still no mention of xinyi liuhe. The recently discovered 'Wennan Yue family Genealogy', which was written during the Jiaqing reign of the Qing dynasty, merely states that Yue Fei could "lift up to 300 pounds, draw a bow with a draw weight of 8 dan (1 dan being approx. 60kg), and shoot a bow from both left and right" as well as "unusually skilled at climbing slopes and jumping ditches" - all of which are military skills, with no mention of martial arts specifically. That said, it is understandable that martial artists would want to co-opt the famous general Yue Fei as the originator of their art. Xinyi liuhe is not alone in this regard: the various kinds of 'Yue Family boxing' which have been made public in recent years, all treat Yue Fei as their originator and even the Chuojiao Fanzi styles have his ancestral tablet on display in their wuguan.

Ji Longfeng's creation of xinyi liuhe was definitely not as simple as 'turning spear methods into fist methods'. He must have drawn on his experience and research into several different styles before he could possibly create a martial art of his own. I am certain that Ji Longfeng's reason for going to Henan from his hometown in Shanxi was to study martial arts at Shaolin temple. Leaving aside for the moment that the very phrase 'Xinyi' itself comes from the Buddhist Classic (Abhidharma-Kosa), the 'ba' in the name for xinyi liuhe's oldest routine, '4 seizes' (Si Ba) is a Henan dialect word. Ji Longfeng was from Shanxi, Shanxi people call one routine 'yi tang quan' (as opposed to the more common 'yi tao quan' or 'yi lu quan' used in other parts of China), hence the 'tang' character in the 'Si tang zha shi' created by Dai Longbang from praying mantis routines. Therefore, the arts studied by Ji Longfeng were likely to be Shaolin Xinyiba and Shaolin five fists among others. There are people who say that it was Ji Longfeng who taught Xinyiba to the Shaolin monks; this assertion is slightly ridiculous, given that Shaolin gongfu originated before the Tang dynasty and Ji lived during the late Ming/early Qing.

2) Given that they are all from the same root, why are the arts practiced in Henan, Shanxi and Hebei so different?

Ma Xueli, the forefather of Henan Xinyi Liuhe, had not studied martial arts prior to studying under Ji Longfeng, and so his xinyi liuhe was not infused with elements from other arts. Ma Xueli's art was mainly passed down amongst the Hui (Chinese Muslims), who rarely interacted with Han martial artists, so Henan's xinyi liuhe more closely resembles the original art taught by Ji Longfeng. Dai Longbang, on the other hand, combined Li Zheng's xinyi liuhe and Jin Shikui's praying mantis to create his own art, which he then taught in Shanxi. Hebei's xingyiquan also derives from Dai Longbang's teaching, and during the late Qing was brought to the cultural, political and commercial hub of China at the time - Beijing and Tianjin. In so doing, xingyiquan gained the chance to interact with the main big styles of the time and to be listed as one of the 3 neijiai arts. However, there are some intrinsic differences, both in theory and practice, between xingyiquan and xinyi liuhe.

3) Why are there so many differing opinions as to the Dai family boxing manuals, as well as the names and dates of Dai Longbang and Dai Wenxiong?

For a long time now, research into Dai style xinyi has been supported by assumptions from unscientific stories and legends. Real, credible historical records are severely lacking, which is why the whole area has seemed confusing and complicated. It was only when the Dai family genealogy and 'shen zhou' [sheet with names of ancestors of a clan written on it, brought out so that living can pay respects to their ancestors] were discovered in Dai county in 2001 that outsiders realised that the characters we have been using for Dai Longbang and Dai Wenxiong/Dai Wenxun for decades were incorrect. This cannot but make people suspicious of the manuals and genealogies previously made public. If the manuals previously coming from the Dai family were really the work of Dai Longbang, he could not possibly have written his own name wrongly in the preface, annotations and postscript. It would be understandable if Li Luoneng or Che Yizhai (who were both illiterate) weren't clear about which characters to use to write their shifu or shiye's name, but Dai Liangdong and Dai Kui, who in recent years have been revered as 'orthodox', were both fairly well educated, how could they possibly write the names of their shifu or shiye wrongly on their 'bai shi' slip or on their lineage chart?

There is only one possible explanation: the Dai style manuals previously made public were not the work of Dai Longbang. It is very likely that the famous 'Xinyi Liuhe quan preface' was actually the work of Li Zhen (Li Zheng), as Songi Tielin had said. If the 'preface' really was written by Li Zheng in the 15th year of the reign of Qianlong (1750), then the birth and death dates for Dai Longbang and Dai Wenxiong 'proved' by one Mr Cao (referring to Cao Jizhi, another Dai stylist) and others should be treated with suspicion. If only Mr Cao and others had not rashly come to a conclusion that suited their own agenda, then a lot of mistakes could have been avoided. These kinds of 'taking something as read' deductions have also led me astray in the past. Many years ago, I was training with a few of Chen Mingjie's disciples. Wang Shande said: M Chen has mentioned in the past that the 'xiong' in Dai Wenxiong should be written with the character for bear. Jiang Tiesen and I both said 'That's impossible, who would choose a name with 'bear' in it?'. However, Chen Yiming said that when he was young, he had seen a boxing manual brought over from Qi county on which Dai Wenxiong's name was, indeed, written with the character for 'bear'.

The Dai Liangdong/Dai Kui branch's usage of the wrong names and dates for Dai Longbang and Dai Wenxiong amply demonstrates that Dai Liangdong was not a direct disciple of Dai Wenxiong. The idea that just because someone is surnamed Dai they automatically receive the true transmission doesn't hold water. Trying to 'ride on the coat-tails' [of Dai Wenxiong] for material gain will only end in humiliation for those concerned.

4) Why do some people say that Dai Liangdong was a direct disciple of Dai Wenxiong, whereas Li Luoneng learnt from Guo Weihan?

This is a groundless distortion with an ulterior motive. In recent generations there has been a saying within the martial art community "Dai family boxing, was passed on by the Li family". Outsiders only came to know of Dai Longbang and Dai Wenxiong through the efforts of Li Luoneng, his disciples and grand-disciples, in particular the written works of Li Cunyi, Sun Lutang, Jiang Rongqiao etc, which all praised the Dai family art highly. If Li Luoneng were really the disciple of Guo Weihan, the 'founding father' of xingyiquan would have been Guo Weihan rather than Dai Longbang; Li would not have promoted another 'founding father' at the expense of his own teacher. The name of Dai Liangdong only started to appear in articles after the 1980s, and all in articles written by grand-disciples of Dai Kui from Qi county praising him to the skies. However, historical documents only discovered recently clearly show that Dai Liangdong was Dai Wenxiong's uncle. Under the rules of feudal Chinese society, seniors within the clan could not possibly become disciples of their clan juniors. Dai Liangdong may have learnt some martial arts from Dai Wenxiong, but he could not possibly have been his indoor disciple, as according to the Dai style prohibitions in the olden days, one could not become a formal disciple without kowtowing to your teacher in a baishi ceremony.

There are people who say that the Dai Liangdong-Dai Kui branch must be the orthodox and directly transmitted (di chuan) because it has the 'squatting monkey' (dun mao hou) and the '3 fists and 3 sticks'. In actual fact, both of these elements are present in the Cheng Tianxiang/Cheng Tianlu branch as well as the Guo Weihan branch. In the gongfu that Li Zheng taught to Dai Wenliang and Dai Wenxiong there were 3 'shapes' (san xing) composed of both moving (quan fa) and static postures (zhuang gong). The 'squatting monkey' posture was from the monkey shape, whilst the other two shapes, Dragon and Tiger, also had static postures associated with them. Not only does the Cheng Tianxiang/Cheng Tianlu line have 'squatting monkey' within its routine, called 'Gorilla emerges from the cave' (xing xing chu dong), but also has a routine composed of all 3 shapes, called '3 immortals present their claws' [sic], but you can't say that just because of this the Cheng line is orthodox and all other lines are mere 'offshoots'. This kind of 'only my branch is authentic' (wei wo du zun) prejudice comes from the limitations of being a 'frog in a well' (jing di zhi wa) [common chinese phrase describing someone who has an inflated sense of how good they are because of limited horizons/experience].

5) Which is better, the 'squatting monkey' posture of Dai style xinyi or the San Ti stance common to Taigu xinyi [sic] and Hebei xingyi?

Objectively speaking, the 'squatting monkey' stance is an element from the period before Dai style became an internal (neijia) art, actually it is San Ti which is the symbol of Dai style's transition to become an internal art. The thinking behind neijia arts comes from Daoism, and their basic neigongi is derived from Daoist practices, whereas xinyiquan pre-Dai Longbang was only an offshoot of the Buddhist martial arts of Shaolin temple. There are no traces of Daoist cultivation methods in the 'Shi Yao Lun' (Ten Important Treatises), or the 'Jiu Yao Lun' (Nine Important Treatises), the practice methods are not entirely the same as those of internal arts. The term 'San Ti' originates from a 7-line poem in the text 'Insight into Reality' (Wu zhen pian) written by Zhang Ziyang, the founder of the Southern Daoist tradition, in the lines "The Dao is born of emptiness and becomes the one qi, the one qi then produces yin and yang. Yin and yang then combine to form the 3 bodies (San Ti), from which are produced the myriad things [of this world]". There are some who say that the San Ti stance was the creation of Li Luoneng. Given that 'Insight into Reality',long praised as the 'fount' of internal alchemy, is extremely profound and abstruse, and that Li Luoneng was basically illiterate, I'm afraid that Li might not have even been able to explain the meaning of the term San Ti, let alone create xingyi, based as it is on the Daoist theories of Yinyang and the 5 elements! Looking back at Dai Longbang, Guo Weihan, Dai Wenxiong and Li Luoneng, Dai Longbang had both the highest martial attainment and also the deepest understanding of traditional culture amongst the four, only he could have created the neigong system around the San Ti stance. The practice methods of the San Ti [system] involve a combination of static and moving postures, Sun Lutang and others call it 'Pi quan' (splitting fist), Li Cunyi and others in his line call it 'Shun Bu Ying Zhuo' (Sync-step eagle grasp). I consider that these two names are not accurate enough. The San Ti (set of exercises) is a combination of the San Cai (3 abilities) stance from Dai style xinyi's original 'Gorilla emerges from the cave' neigong set with the 'Single Seizing' (dan ba) and 'Eagle Grasping' (ying zhuo) of xinyi liuhe. Looking over the practice methods for San Ti in the various styles [of xingyi], many have lost the initial Daoist element of the practice. In fact, the secret to practicing San Ti is to have 'water and fire counterbalanced, transforming of hard yang', in order to achieve Zhang Ziyang's aim of 'thunder breaking through the niwan point (acupoint on top of head), true body riding a fire dragon, know not who is doing it , break through the great void' (v. hard to translate, meaning not clear!). Sun Lutang's saying 'If you want to become an immortal, practice pi quan more' has a lot of sense to it.

Compared to the San Ti stance, 'squatting monkey' has a few technical deficiencies to it, in particular, it is not suitable for middle-aged or elderly people to practice. Mr Dai Yongbo from Hunan told me, he had seen high blood pressure in a few young people who practiced 'squatting monkey'. The phenomena of strokes and/or hampered leg mobility in later years seen in the Dai family has also occurred in my own lineage.

6) There used to be a saying in martial arts circles that 'taiji isn't ready to 'go out' (i.e. compete with others) for 10 years, xinyi can kill people within a year' (taiji shi nian bu chu men, xingyi yi nian da si ren). Can the level of 'someone dies in the space of one contraction and expansion' (shu zhan er zi yi ming wang) really be reached?

There is an element of exaggeration in these martial arts sayings, but it is true that, comparatively, xinyi/xingyi does produce gongfu more quickly than taiji, especially the 5 element fists. Someone with decent ming jini can already hurt people. But, one year is too short, it would be difficult to build gongfu in that time. 'Contraction [shu] & expansion (zhan)' is the combination of contraction & storing jin with expanding the body & releasing power (fa li). Originally, xinyi only had two moves, the Eagle and the Bear. The bear was for defending and blocking [gu fa], one should contract while rising up; the Eagle was for attacking, one should expand while dropping down. Contracting and expanding must be smooth and natural, the move that best highlights the characteristics of 'contraction and expansion' is 'raising & leading' (tiaoi ling). The xinyiquan taught by Chen Mingjie requires that the student 'sticks to it a bit longer' (?) whilst contracting. As for whether 'someone's life lost in the space of one contraction & expansion', I think it's best to not take it too seriously. Shu and zhan are just practice methods for opening and closing. In a real fight, if you completely use shu zhan as your fighting principles, I'm afraid it might be hard to adapt to the split-second changes involved.

7) Jin family gongfu and Dachengquan (Yiquan) both place great emphasis on stance holding and single movement practice, is the main method of practice in xinyi/xingyi single movements or routines (taolu)?

The founder of Jin family gongfu was surnamed Jin. The materials available to us show that the only personage in the history of Dai style surnamed Jin was Jin Shikui, the praying mantis master who exchanged knowledge with Dai Longbang. The quan pu passed down within my lineage records that Dai Longbang taught Jin Shikui '4 seizes' and the '12 animals', whilst Jin taught Dai Longbang his praying mantis. However, the founder of Jin family gongfu did not know praying mantis, so clearly could not be Jin Shikui. Mr Dai Yongbo from Hunan is a direct inheritor of Jin family gongfu, he has described to me the methods for practising opening and closing in his style, they closely resemble the 'princeling' (tai zi gong) and 'hai sound' (hai zi gong) methods from the Emei styles, and are extremely close to the 'Wild Goose qigongi' (da yan gong) that was at one point so popular in China. Perhaps there is a link between Jin family gongfu and the martial arts passed down by master Bai Yun of Golden Peak in the Emei mountains? What I can be sure of is that, at most, Jin family gongfu contains only fragments of xinyi, it is not a direct transmission.

Wang Xiangzhai also only learnt fragments of Hebei xingyi in his youth, he could not even perform the whole of '4 seizes' or 'zha shi' (note: normally written as 'mixed postures' in xingyi, here Zhang Fang has used the xinyi way of writing it as 'floodgate posture'). He was fortunate in that he encountered some descendants of Li Zheng, as well as going to Shaolin temple to learn Xinyiba, learning crane boxing in Fujian and befriending many masters of bagua and taiji. Dachengquan is a new martial art produced by combining the essence of the bits and pieces he had learnt from various systems in his life.

I think the steps of development of Jin family gongfu and Dachengquan must have been roughly the same. In his famous contests, Wang Xiangzhai must have not encountered equal to his level, otherwise he couldn't possible have won with one move. Consider this: in contemporary sanshou or leitai competitions, bouts between two challengers of similar ability are overwhelmingly won on points; even where victory is achieved by K.O., this is usually achieved through punch or fist/foot/elbow/knee combos. For this reason, [someone who] purely trains single movement practice will find it very difficult to get used to modern sanshou. Not only do boxing and Muay Thai have advanced combo training, Tae Kwon Do and karate also have many routines for high dan grades to practice. Xinyi (xingyi) routines are the essence of combo practice, the training progression is first stance holding, then single movement practice, then finally forms practice. We cannot give up a complete system of martial training simply because of the extreme viewpoints of one famous master of the past.

8) Why does the Qi county group of practitioners call themselves 'Dai style xinyiquan' whilst Chen Mingjie's group in Shenyang call themselves 'Dai family xinyiquan', even though they both derive from the teachings of Dai Kui?

In the 1980s, Dai Kui's grand-disciples in Qi county, with an 'only direct transmission is family' mindset, formally named the xinyiquan being practiced in Qi county as 'Dai style xinyiquan' in order to differentiate themselves from the xinyi in Taigu and the various branches of xingyiquan and make clear that they were the orthodox inheritors of the teachings of the Dai family. Leaving aside for the moment the issue of whether the description is accurate, this kind of 'only direct transmission is family' mindset is childish and laughable. The founder of internal alchemy thousands of years ago opposed this narrow-minded 'only direct transmission is family' way of thinking, why do the people in Qi county of today want to go in the opposite direction? As for Chen Mingjie's choice of 'Dai family xinyiquan' for the system he passed down, the meaning is completely different to the thinking of the modern-day Qi county group. Firstly, ever since he moved to Shenyang from Qi county at the age of 18, when interacting with other martial artists, M Chen always called what he had learnt 'Dai family boxing' (Dai jia quan). It is said that Li Luoneng, Che Yizhai and Song Shirong all called the art they had learnt 'Dai jia quan'. When Yan Zhigao (master of Wu Yuxiang) style taiji] came to Shenyang, after seeing M Chen perform his xinyiquan, he called it the 'old Dai family boxing' (dai jia lao quan); Gao Fengwu and Wang Jingfeng, who were both from Qi county and had studied xinyiquan from a young age, also called the art 'Dai jia quan'. Chen Mingjie not only studied under Dai Kui, he also received teachings from Cheng Tianxiang ('Big Cheng') and Cheng Tianlu ('2nd Cheng'). Both Chengs were personal disciples (i.e. directly taught by the shifu, as opposed to taught by the kungfu brothers) of Dai Wenxiong and Guo Weihan. In Dai Wenxiong's later years, the two Chengs were chosen to run the Dai family armed escort agency. After M Chen arrived in Shenyang in 1927, he practiced his xinyiquan with over 10 other Qi county natives (including Gao Fengwu). They would compare skills every day, M Chen extracted the essence of the internal arts from these masters. Later on, M Chen studied taijiquani under Yan Zhigao, who was also a master of xingyiquan. M Chen also learnt bagua from Ying Shijiu, who had learnt bagua and xingyi under Hao En-guang. The insights and thinking of these two masters must have had an effect on M Chen. In the 1950s, M Chen exchanged [experience] with the famous Che style xinyi (sic) master Xu Chenglin. M Chen combined his own xinyiquan with elements from other lines of both xinyi and xingyi, being careful to discard the false and preserve the essence. By the late '50s, the style he taught gradually acquired its own unique flavour. As such, he named the material he taught as 'Dai family xinyiquan', both in order to distinguish what he taught from the 'Dai style' moniker of Qi county and also to encompass the meaning of 'all branches coming from Dai Longbang are one family'.

9. In the book 'Secret methods of Xingyiquan' given away free with issue 5 of 'Jingwu' magazine, 2003, the lineage and birth and death dates of the relevant masters are different to those given by today's practitioners from Qi county, why? Exactly which member of the Dai family is the 'Master Dai' listed in that lineage?

I read this boxing manual back in the early 1980s, its author, Gao Jiangheng was from Qi county. Many people in Qi county have a copy of this book, but have not been willing up to now to reveal it to the public. A few years ago, some people from Qi county treated xinyiquan history as a commercial secret, hid the real history and instead started promulgating their own carefully fabricated lies in various magazines. Of course, when the real history started to resurface, their [the fabricators] stories couldn't stand up and they ended up humiliated. This book has historical value in that it tells us at least two things. Firstly, Dai Wenxiong, Dai Wenliang and Guo Weihan did indeed study and teach together, and it is an incontrovertible fact that Li Luoneng was taught by Dai Wenxiong, which tallies with the inscription on Che Yizhai's gravestone. Secondly, it records that Dai Wenxiong and Dai Wenliang, because of their advancing years, returned to Qi county and taught xinyiquan in the first year of the reign of Emperor Guangxu (1875), which means that there is a difference of at least 20 years between the birth and death dates for Dai Wenxiong 'proven' by Mr Cao and others and this quanpu. In the first year of Guangxu, Dai Wenxiong was only 60 years old, because he worked in a job that involved where 'one's sword would taste blood' (dao tou tian xue), there were very exacting requirements as to one's age and stamina. As for the photo of 'Master Dai', based on Gao Jiangheng's lineage,it may be of Dai Wenxiong. Based on the period when photography was introduced and popularised in China, it shows that the 'proven' birth and death dates quoted in the last 20 years are mistaken.

10. Are there deficiencies in xinyiquan/xingyiquan? Which aspects need to be improved? Can xinyiquan practitioners compete in modern sanshou competitions?

Although I am a direct (di xi) inheritor of Dai family xinyiquan, but I'm not afraid to discuss its weak points. Firstly, xinyi (xingyi) is deficient in leg methods (tui fa), because in the neijia approach to fighting there is the concept of 'as soon as you raise the leg, half the body becomes unstable' (tai tui ban bian kong). The kicks that do exist in taiji and xinyi never go above the knee. Actually, this deficiency in traditional CMAi has long been obscured by a halo of blindness and arrogance. Mainland martial artists are unwilling to mention incidents such as the one in the 1930s, when the renowned master Chen Zizheng was knocked out by a kick from a Muay Thai boxer. The most effective and most commonly used techniques on the modern leitai are tui fa, leg sweeps and side kicks are powerful techniques with which to attack your opponent. From this perspective, there is no way that the traditional concept of 'not raising the leg too high' can adapt to modern sanshou. Another weak point of xinyi is that the footwork is relatively monotonous, most routines are linear; hence, a lot of famous masters of xingyiquan of recent times have studied bagua as well, such as Song Shirong, Li Cunyi, Zhang Zhankui, Sun Lutang, Jiang Rongqiao, etc. There are also imperfections in xinyi's body methods (shen fai): particularly in Henan's Xinyi Liuhe and the Dai style xinyi from Qi county, a lot of postures end up leaning forward after issuing power (fa li), which is a big no-no in a real fight, as it would give a skilled martial artist the perfect opportunity to attack. Actually, an expert who has really mastered dousou ('shaking') neigong can swiftly retract their body, returning the body-weight to the back leg in an instant, leaving the opponent with no weakness to exploit.

As for whether xinyi can gain a foothold in modern sport fighting, apart from needing to have a certain amount of strength, [a xinyi practitioner] would have to practice sparring with gloves and other protective gear on. The most tragic aspect of traditional CMA today is that it is limited to shadowboxing, with practitioners intoxicated by a feeling of their own invincibility. Some people from my own xinyi group did sparring training with protective gear on in the early 1980s, but a sparring accident left someone injured; after that no-one dared to try out their kicks and punches on other people. Actually, xinyiquan's reputation was gained through fighting - it is said that Dai Wenxiong and Li Luoneng were originally good friends, then later Dai Wenxiong taught Li xinyiquan. The two of them would hit each other for real in fighting, regardless of the traditional teacher-student distinction, wearing protective vests made of cow tendons and bronze mirrors. Once, Li Luoneng shattered the bronze mirror covering Dai's chest with the move 'Hu Pu' (tiger pounce). If xinyiquan does not reform itself, in fists it will not be able to compete with boxing, in legs it will be no match for Taekwondo, in throws it will be inferior to Sanda, and its elbow and knee methods will be no match for those of Muay Thai; [if xinyi does not reform] many years from now, a martial arts system with no reason for existing will gradually die out.

On another note, Dai Yongbo from Hunan once asked me about the relationship between the 'yi' character practices of Jin family gongfu and xinyiquan's 'thunder sound' (lei sheng). 'Thunder sound' comes from the dantian, through the jingmai (meridians) it affects the bodily organs to produce various sounds. The 'thunder sound' practices of the various branches of xinyi are not identical, some have 7, 6 or 5 sounds, the 'yi' sound (of Jin family gongfu) is probably the 'head' [first, most important] of the various sounds. In my humble opinion, the practice of 'thunder sound' can be traced back to the Daoist 'Roaring art' (chang xiao shu) that was popular during the Wei, Jin and Northern & Southern dynasties (from about 220 - 589 AD).